Again you ignored what I said - I asekd where in your Jude and Ephesus passage it uses the word "tongues" - and the book of Ephesus was written long after the book of Acts. In Acts when Paul wivisted there they spoke in foreign languages (they had different languages or tongues there Epesus was a big port city and so there would be people there fro, different language backgorund and the word in the Greek there literally means foreign languages - I have NEVER denied that ) - but by the time Paul wrote back there is apparently no mention of tongues - why not - if it was so important - he mentions other importat elements. So yes initially there was tongues - but even it was not what you are advocating - it is the word in the original Greek "glossalalia" which translated means "foreign language" - I challenge you to show me where 1. that was not the word used in the Greek and 2. where in classical Greek that word means anything other than a foreign language. The same applies to the Mark passage - they would speak in tongues that were new to them - or foreign languages that were new to them. By the way more evidence that it was a sign gift that would pass away - if you continue reading that passage in Mark it says that they would also handle snakes and drink poison - why do you not do that as well - if you want the tongues why not bring snakes and poison into your service - because you want to pick and choose which part you want to accept. Where a contextual reading of the Scripture would show that "tongues (or foreign languages), dirnking poison, handling snames" - all found in the MArk passage of which you only choose to emphasize tongues - all of these were SIGN gifts to the Jews to show them that their Messiah had come and that they had missed him. Could you show me one instance in Scirpture were tongues were used with non-Jews - every time tongues were used it was when Jews were present - and by the way thqat was only three times (or maybe four) in the entire book of Acts. So you have shown me nothing because1. you do not know the meaning of the word tongues, 2. you have taken out of context the use of tongues, and 3.it is not a matter of agreeing with interpretaiotn - it is a matter of what did a word mean in the language it was written - if someone tries to tell me that a certain word has been translated from Chinese and it has a certain meaning and then I go off and try to say - no it means something completely different - you as a Chinese speaker would be able to say - no that is wrong - I know Chinese and it does not mean that - it has nothing to do with interpretaiotn - it have everyhting to do with meaning. The same with the word for tongues - show me where the Greek EVER means anything else. You cannot which is why you try to jsut say the same thing over and over again. In seminary one studies the Greek and Hebrew and knows what these htings mean - but to you it does not matter what they mean because you will make them mean whatever you want for them to mean. I am amazed that 75% of what I say you completely ignore - and then go to verses in Jude and Ephesians where the word tongues is not mentioned to try to prove it is talkign about tongues - how will anyone have respect for your argument when you try to place words in a sentence (like tongue) that is not there and even the word you do put in you totally change it around from its original meaning (foreign language) to some other menaing (unknown babble). Paul himself (ad I believe he was referring to tongues) when writing to the church at Corinth said that when he was a child he spake as a child (how do children speak - babbling - the smae as tongue spekaigs) but when he became a man - or when he matured - he put away childish things. I would encourage you to put away childish babble and begin to mature in God's word. The quote form the lady I sent you shows the tendency of charismatic churches to make people fake soemthing . Is there interpreation of your tongues everytime you do it - Paul said that was necessary. Is it one perosn at a time doing it - Paul said it should be. You just cut out parts of the Bible that do not fit your experience. Again re-read what I have already said - you choose one of two things and try to make an argument and that is not studying God's Word - it is blind acceptanc eof something. Can you show me wherethe Greek word used in Scripture glossolalia - ever means anything other than a foreign language. The only other words tranlated tongues in the New Testament are dialectos - which means a dialect of a language and hetero-glossolalia - which also has the meaning of foreign language - and I find it rather arrogant that you suddenly have such knowledge of Greek - that you want to change what the word has meant for 2000 years. Have a good day and Jesus loves you too and wants you to know the truth.
Dear Anon (BTW, never got hold of ur name), thanks for ur sincerity.
Again, I dare not change or add God's word. I have merely quoted the Bible saying:
1) Praying in tongue is praying in spirit. (1Cor14:14)
2) Thus, Eph6:18 & Jude1:20 both refer to praying in tongue.
3) Praying in tongue is for self-edification. But if interpreted, it edifies the church.
Pls forgive me if I have "acted" arrogant. I endeavour to be as knowlegeable as I can by the grace of God. Forgive my Greek/Hebrew deficiency. I agree that such language skill would be a big bonus for a rewarding Bible study. I will continue to depend on the Holy Spirit and my pastors and men of God to reveal more truths to me.
Truly I love the Word of God. For my life has been much transformed by the increasing knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. And I thank my God that all my family members are now saved by the grace and mercy of God. And the most exciting thing is that we are ALL excited about Jesus. Hallelujah!
Since this thread is getting way too long for the purpose of this blog, I welcome ur feedback to: bentingsh@gmail.com
Not too sure why ur new comment didn't come out. I tried to delete some previous comments but didn't help. Below are some of ur points:
*** Anon said... ...But you are exactly corerect about that - this babbling that they call tongues (which is not a foreign language at all and therefore not tru biblical tongues but only an imitaiton) is for self edification and that is why it is wrong - worship is for God edification - and it is unfortunate that this cult of egoism has spread to the church- we think it is all about us and all about our edificaiotn - when in reality it is all about Him and what He has done for us. The heart of worhsip is all about Him and yet you have admitted so well what tongues is - it is all aobut us and our edification - hopefully you are beginning to see the truth from your own lips...
You have not made a point yet in anyhting you have said other than the point about self-edificaiton - which I do not think is any reason at all for tongues spekaing - even though it is not even tongues spekaing as found in the Scripture - you still have not shown me a time in the Bible where it uses a wored for tongues that does not mean a foreign language. You cannot assign your own definition of tongues to the Greek word anymore that I can assign my own definition of some chinese word to make it mean what I want it to mean - that is just crazy. have a good day - praying that you will find the truth in Scirpture - not in teachers or experience or anything else. ***
Dear Anon, With all due respect, I am not the one to make up whether the gift of tongue is for self-edification or not. Nor do I make up my own definition of the gift of tongue. If u insist otherwise, hey, tell it to God.
(1Cor14:4) He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
(1Cor14:14) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Anonymous said... first I parise God that your family are followers of christ - now don;t you want them to follow the truth.
I am beginning ot think that logic is not being taught in this country at all. If I say that all Sarawakians live in Malaysia I am correct right?
But if I say all MAlaysians live in Sarawak - I am incorrect right?
So if I say all who speka in tongues (a foriegn language) speka in the the spirit, 0 that is correct. But to turn it around and say that all who speak in the spirit speak in tongues is just not so.
In fact Paul said that not everyone speaks in tongues. And yet if we believe that when we accept Christ and invite Him into our lives He comes in - then if we believe in the Trinity - the SPirit comes in at that time. So you prayed inthe SPirit even before you became a believer. And Rick Warren and others who have never prayered in tongues - does that means that they do not pray in the spirit - I am afraid that you are just wrong here and illogical at that.
The entire point Paul was trying to make - if you read the next few verses of I Cor. 14.!4 iss the importance of understanidng - otherwise how will the person know when to say amen at the end of the prayer (vs. 16). The entire issue was understanding and that is why an interpretor was necessaryso thos ewho did not understand the language in which the person spoke could understand and have a translation - much as when your friend from China spoke he has an interpretor so that people could understand. When he spoke in Chinese (and since the Spirit was hopefully in Him) he was spekaing in tongues. Then you had a translator who had the gift of interpretaiotn to help.
In addition you apologize for seeming arrogant and then in the next sentence are arrogant again - even admitting that tongues is for self edification - that is just the problem - 'self-edificaiotn. Our worhsip has become about edifiying self - when true worship is about edifying our Savior. But you are exactly corerect about that - this babbling that they call tongues (which is not a foreign language at all and therefore not tru biblical tongues but only an imitaiton) is for self edification and that is why it is wrong - worship is for God edification - and it is unfortunate that this cult of egoism has spread to the church- we think it is all about us and all about our edificaiotn - when in reality it is all about Him and what He has done for us. The heart of worhsip is all about Him and yet you have admitted so well what tongues is - it is all aobut us and our edification - hopefully you are beginning to see the truth from your own lips.
You fail (as usual) to address anything like the Mark passage and why you are not handling snakes - that is in the same passage but you conveninetly ignore it. If snake handling passed away then tongues spekaing did as well but if tongues spekaing is still aorund then so should snake handling. You cannot just cut out that part and leave in the other part to prove your point. You have done that with both the Mark and Corinthians passage. The Jude and Ephsians passage therefore are not necessarily tlakign aobut tongues - see the logic at the beginning - so you cannot make them say what they do not say by taking a verse in I Corinthains completely out of context. You have not made a point yet in anyhting you have said other than the point about self-edificaiton - which I do not think is any reason at all for tongues spekaing - even though it is not even tongues spekaing as found in the Scripture - you still have not shown me a time in the Bible where it uses a wored for tongues that does not mean a foreign language. You cannot assign your own definition of tongues to the Greek word anymore that I can assign my own definition of some chinese word to make it mean what I want it to mean - that is just crazy.
have a good day - praying that you will find the truth in Scirpture - not in teachers or experience or anything else.
To respond to your last comment - 1. You have made up your own definition of tongue - I gave you the Greek word that is used - it is glossolalia - and you are telling me that it no longer means foreign language but instead means this babbling that is mosre often seen in Hindusim and Buddhism - that is making up your own definition - show me any Greek scholar who says the glosalalia means soemthing other than foreign language
2. Again as I said above - you take the verse out of context - Paul was say - "what use if you sepak in a tongue - it is only edifying yourself - (in other words he is spekaing rhetorically and saying this is stupid speaking in a tongue because it only edifies yourself and not the entire body) - but if someone prophesies (or preaches) it benefits everyone - read the entire chapter - the entire point of the first haf is to point out why tongues are not good in a service and how is it better to speak 5 words that someone understands over a thousand in an unknown tongue - it is really pretty plain and simple what he said - but osmehow you have to take a part out to prove your point - somehting cults do but Christians should never be guilty of doing
3. look at the verse you typed - again the same idea - if you pray in a tongue - what use - becauser your understanding is unfruitful - or does not produce fruit - and again your logic is faulty as well - see my first statement about people in Sarawak and Malaysia.
a through analysis of I Corinthians 14 would show The believers at Corinth strongly desired the showy and spectacular when it came to spiritual gifts.[4] And so they desired the gift of tongues as the chief of all gifts from God. Paul's response was two-fold: First he shows the Corinthians that if they are going to seek anything from God as believers, they should seek to love as He loves.[5] Second, he dethrones the gift of tongues showing that of all spiritual gifts given to the church, the most important gift is prophecy, not tongues.[6] [7]
Now in his comparison of tongues and prophecy, Paul argues according to the following in 1 Corinthians 14:1-19:
Paul demonstrates the inferiority of tongues. Paul demonstrates that tongues do not edify.(8) Paul demonstrates that by itself, the gift of tongues is unintelligible to the listener.(9) Paul outlines the purpose of tongues and prophecy.(10) Paul details the procedure for the exercise of tongues and other such gifts of the Spirit.(11) And so, if we are going to understand the purpose of the genuine gift of tongues, the passage to which we must go is Paul's treatment of it in 1 Corinthians 14:20-25. Now when we examine this text we conclude that the purpose of the gift of tongues, first of all, is the proclamation of judgment.
The Purpose of Tongues, a Proclamation of God's Judgment, 1 Corinthians 14:20 1 Corinthians 14:20 – 22, "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
To understand the purpose of tongues as outlined in this passage, let us walk our way through this text point by point. First of all, tongues are a sign. (verse 22) "Wherefore tongues are for a sign. . ." And what is a sign? In the Bible the word sign means a declaration of something. For example, circumcision was the declaration of the covenant in the Old Testament. In Romans 4:11 it was a declaration of a person's union with God. The rainbow serves as a declaration of God's grace in time of judgment. And so, according to 1 Corinthians 14:22, tongues are a declaration of some truth.
Secondly, tongues are a sign to unbelievers. "Not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. . . ." Unlike prophecy which declares the blessing of God as it is a gift given to edify the body of Christ, tongues declare a message from God to unbelievers. Now the question that must be asked is this: What is it that tongues, as a sign, declare to unbelievers? The answer to this is found in Paul's quotation 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NAS): "In the Law it is written, 'By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,' says the Lord. SO THEN [based upon the truth quoted in Isaiah] tongues are for a sign. . . ."
To understand the purpose of tongues as stated in 1 Corinthians.14:22, we must understand what Paul means by his quotation in 1 Corinthians 14:21.[12] To do that, let's examine Isaiah 28 for a moment.
The context of Isaiah 28 is a passage written to the rebellious people of Judah. Verses seven and eight describe the scene: the covenantal heads of God's people – who should have been a source of blessing and encouragement – have become a curse because they value pleasure more than God.
Isaiah 28:7 -8, "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean."
The picture presented here is one of filth and disgust. God had taken a people from the nations and made them His special people. And yet, these people time and time again rebelled. In fact, the rebellion got so bad that drunkenness was pervasive among God's leaders. No place could be found that had not been tainted by vomit. It is in this context, God sent Isaiah to pronounce – amazingly – blessing and hope if these sinful leaders would repent.
Isaiah 28:12, "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."
Indeed, rather than responding to this message with repentance and faith, these wicked leaders ignored the message of Isaiah – in fact, not only did they not listen to it, they mocked it!
Isaiah 28:9 - 10, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
In essence they said, "Isaiah, your teaching is so juvenile and elementary. It's the "ABCs" of theology. We know what we are doing!" And yet, God will not be mocked.(13) Because of the rebellion of His people, yea because of their continued unbelief, God must send forth His judgment!
Isaiah 28:11, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."
This is referencing the coming Babylonian captivity which would occur in 586 BC.[14]
Isaiah 28:13, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."
As the people mocked Isaiah's simple message[15] the next simple message would be the message of judgment that they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive.
And so because of His people's stubborn and rebellious heart – their heart full of unbelief – God warned of a coming judgment- a judgment that would occur in 586 BC. And how would this judgment be identified? When a people of a "strange tongue" – in this case the Babylonians – come to conquer and destroy Judah, then the people would know that God's judgment had arrived!
In fact, in this context notice that tongues are not a New Testament phenomena. At least four times they appear in the Old Testament. [16] And each time they represent a sign of God's judgment against apostasy, rebellion, unbelief and rejection of God. And thus, the Old Testament presents a unified testimony as to the significance of tongues – this is a testimony that any New Testament Jew would have understood if they had the eyes to see!
Prophecies from the 15th, 8th and 6th century BC all unite to make the same point – when tongues God's people, the people will know that God's judgment has come!
Now, based upon this Old Testament setting for tongues, what does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 14 that "tongues are a sign to the unbelievers? In other words, what is the purpose of tongues? There can only be one answer, tongues are a sign of God's judgment to unbelievers – for the sin of unbelief.
On the day of Pentecost when the Disciples amazed the Jewish multitude with tongues and the multitudes asked the question "what does this mean."[17] In the context of redemptive history, the answer is obvious. Just as the darkness that covered the earth at the time of Christ's crucifixion was a clear statement of God's judgment against His apostate and unbelieving people, [18] so also tongues represented the same message to these same Jews on account of their rebellious unbelief: God is not pleased with your religion!
"Tongues clearly indicate God's judgment on unbelief. If the Lord would bring such devastating judgment on his old covenant people as the Babylonians brought on Israel, then he surely will bring a finalizing judgment of even greater proportions on all who hear and reject the gracious message of the new covenant."[19]
Now is this the significance of tongues throughout the New Testament?[20] The answer is an emphatic YES! Each of these occurrences represent the same message/sign from God.
"A dramatic change is taking place in the outworking of God's plan of redemption. People of God, beware- God will not be mocked! The true child of God is the one who trusts in the Lord, and not in themselves. To continue in an unrepentant state, thinking that your religion of good deeds will save you, will reap the judgment of God on account of your unbelief!"[21]
And so, what is the purpose of the gift of tongues in the New Testament? It proclaims the judgment of God against His unbelieving people (Jews)! And that is why Paul begins this section on the purpose of tongues with this exhortation:
1 Corinthians 14:10, "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men."
The gift of tongues is not a toy designed for your own personal benefit. It is a powerful tool through which God proclaims His wrath against all who will not believe!
Thank you for showing me why u don't believe in the gift of tongue anymore.
As for myself, I will continue to desire for the best gift. Doesn't matter the gift is "inferior" or "superior". But I desire the best gift. And I pray that I may minister the gift of the Holy Spirit with love to others. And yes, I thank my God that the Holy Spirit has given me the gift of tongue. Hallelujah!
Pray for me too that I may continue to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
I confess I have the gift of discernment now too. And Anon, when we are in heaven one day, pls drop by and we will fellowship. Meantime, take care, buddy.
I believe that the Jesw are still God's chosen people - I do not believe that goes back on His promise ot bless a people and I also believe that the nation of Israel will play an important role in end time events. I believe hjowever that because of their dis-belief they have suffered down through the years. The prophet Joel prophesied that their Messiah would come and tha they would not recognize Him and as a result they would see their young men having visions and spekaing in different languages - and when they saw this it was a sign that their Messiah had come and they had missed Him. Which is exactly what I believe happened at Pentecost (another reason I also believe that this gift of lnaguages was for the Jews as it filled the Old Testament prophecy of Joel). And this was a warning as I pointed out in my last message that judgment was coming which did come in 40 AM when the city of Jerusalem was completely destroyed (just becuase osmeon is God's chosen people - do not mean they are immune from God's judgment). The early church leaders - Jews - began spekaing in languages other than Hevrew that they had never studied - they spoke Greek, Latin, and many other languages they had never studied before - and this should have served as warning when they saw this miraculous event that Joel's rohecy had been fulfilled and that now God was going to judge them (Just as he had done in the Old Testament). I also believe that in spite of all of that and the persecution of Jewish people thorugh the years - God will still use thme in the final unfolding of history - however I am not a person who blindly defends every aciton of Israel either. HOwever if we are to trust the covenant that god made with us as an unchanging covenant made with an unchanging God - then we must believe that He will still honor his covenant with the Jews as well. Again though I am not a date setter and I am not exactly sure how He will do it. I think that books like the Left Behind series and others are interesting - but we have to be careful that we do not take them as inspired of God. They are one posibility of what might happen but there are other possibilities as well. I believe that we as believers are the branch that as the Bible says has been "grafted" into the vine and therefore in a sense of the word we are the "new Jews". god will work out His purposes in history and I again believe the Jews will play a role in that. More than that - I am not willing to commit to exactly how it will happen - but I must believe it if I am to believe that God is faithful to His covenant. Hope that is not too confusing. I fele that it s a little less clear in Scirpture than other htings such as tongues speaking - which I cearly believe Scripture says will cease. :) Have a wonderful week and I pray that our Father will show to you through His Word the truth concerning spiritual gifts - the sign ones - that passed away, and the spekaing and serving ones - which are still for today.
8 comments:
Again you ignored what I said - I asekd where in your Jude and Ephesus passage it uses the word "tongues" - and the book of Ephesus was written long after the book of Acts. In Acts when Paul wivisted there they spoke in foreign languages (they had different languages or tongues there Epesus was a big port city and so there would be people there fro, different language backgorund and the word in the Greek there literally means foreign languages - I have NEVER denied that ) - but by the time Paul wrote back there is apparently no mention of tongues - why not - if it was so important - he mentions other importat elements. So yes initially there was tongues - but even it was not what you are advocating - it is the word in the original Greek "glossalalia" which translated means "foreign language" - I challenge you to show me where 1. that was not the word used in the Greek and 2. where in classical Greek that word means anything other than a foreign language.
The same applies to the Mark passage - they would speak in tongues that were new to them - or foreign languages that were new to them. By the way more evidence that it was a sign gift that would pass away - if you continue reading that passage in Mark it says that they would also handle snakes and drink poison - why do you not do that as well - if you want the tongues why not bring snakes and poison into your service - because you want to pick and choose which part you want to accept. Where a contextual reading of the Scripture would show that "tongues (or foreign languages), dirnking poison, handling snames" - all found in the MArk passage of which you only choose to emphasize tongues - all of these were SIGN gifts to the Jews to show them that their Messiah had come and that they had missed him. Could you show me one instance in Scirpture were tongues were used with non-Jews - every time tongues were used it was when Jews were present - and by the way thqat was only three times (or maybe four) in the entire book of Acts. So you have shown me nothing because1. you do not know the meaning of the word tongues, 2. you have taken out of context the use of tongues, and 3.it is not a matter of agreeing with interpretaiotn - it is a matter of what did a word mean in the language it was written - if someone tries to tell me that a certain word has been translated from Chinese and it has a certain meaning and then I go off and try to say - no it means something completely different - you as a Chinese speaker would be able to say - no that is wrong - I know Chinese and it does not mean that - it has nothing to do with interpretaiotn - it have everyhting to do with meaning. The same with the word for tongues - show me where the Greek EVER means anything else. You cannot which is why you try to jsut say the same thing over and over again. In seminary one studies the Greek and Hebrew and knows what these htings mean - but to you it does not matter what they mean because you will make them mean whatever you want for them to mean. I am amazed that 75% of what I say you completely ignore - and then go to verses in Jude and Ephesians where the word tongues is not mentioned to try to prove it is talkign about tongues - how will anyone have respect for your argument when you try to place words in a sentence (like tongue) that is not there and even the word you do put in you totally change it around from its original meaning (foreign language) to some other menaing (unknown babble). Paul himself (ad I believe he was referring to tongues) when writing to the church at Corinth said that when he was a child he spake as a child (how do children speak - babbling - the smae as tongue spekaigs) but when he became a man - or when he matured - he put away childish things. I would encourage you to put away childish babble and begin to mature in God's word. The quote form the lady I sent you shows the tendency of charismatic churches to make people fake soemthing . Is there interpreation of your tongues everytime you do it - Paul said that was necessary. Is it one perosn at a time doing it - Paul said it should be. You just cut out parts of the Bible that do not fit your experience. Again re-read what I have already said - you choose one of two things and try to make an argument and that is not studying God's Word - it is blind acceptanc eof something. Can you show me wherethe Greek word used in Scripture glossolalia - ever means anything other than a foreign language. The only other words tranlated tongues in the New Testament are dialectos - which means a dialect of a language and hetero-glossolalia - which also has the meaning of foreign language - and I find it rather arrogant that you suddenly have such knowledge of Greek - that you want to change what the word has meant for 2000 years. Have a good day and Jesus loves you too and wants you to know the truth.
Dear Anon (BTW, never got hold of ur name), thanks for ur sincerity.
Again, I dare not change or add God's word. I have merely quoted the Bible saying:
1) Praying in tongue is praying in spirit. (1Cor14:14)
2) Thus, Eph6:18 & Jude1:20 both refer to praying in tongue.
3) Praying in tongue is for self-edification. But if interpreted, it edifies the church.
Pls forgive me if I have "acted" arrogant. I endeavour to be as knowlegeable as I can by the grace of God. Forgive my Greek/Hebrew deficiency. I agree that such language skill would be a big bonus for a rewarding Bible study. I will continue to depend on the Holy Spirit and my pastors and men of God to reveal more truths to me.
Truly I love the Word of God. For my life has been much transformed by the increasing knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. And I thank my God that all my family members are now saved by the grace and mercy of God. And the most exciting thing is that we are ALL excited about Jesus. Hallelujah!
Since this thread is getting way too long for the purpose of this blog, I welcome ur feedback to: bentingsh@gmail.com
Jesus loves u.
For the time being I wish to remain anonymous - however I will blog in the next one down to make things more simple.
Not too sure why ur new comment didn't come out. I tried to delete some previous comments but didn't help. Below are some of ur points:
***
Anon said...
...But you are exactly corerect about that - this babbling that they call tongues (which is not a foreign language at all and therefore not tru biblical tongues but only an imitaiton) is for self edification and that is why it is wrong - worship is for God edification - and it is unfortunate that this cult of egoism has spread to the church- we think it is all about us and all about our edificaiotn - when in reality it is all about Him and what He has done for us. The heart of worhsip is all about Him and yet you have admitted so well what tongues is - it is all aobut us and our edification - hopefully you are beginning to see the truth from your own lips...
You have not made a point yet in anyhting you have said other than the point about self-edificaiton - which I do not think is any reason at all for tongues spekaing - even though it is not even tongues spekaing as found in the Scripture - you still have not shown me a time in the Bible where it uses a wored for tongues that does not mean a foreign language. You cannot assign your own definition of tongues to the Greek word anymore that I can assign my own definition of some chinese word to make it mean what I want it to mean - that is just crazy. have a good day - praying that you will find the truth in Scirpture - not in teachers or experience or anything else.
***
Dear Anon,
With all due respect, I am not the one to make up whether the gift of tongue is for self-edification or not. Nor do I make up my own definition of the gift of tongue. If u insist otherwise, hey, tell it to God.
(1Cor14:4) He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
(1Cor14:14) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Here is the full text of what I said:
Anonymous said...
first I parise God that your family are followers of christ - now don;t you want them to follow the truth.
I am beginning ot think that logic is not being taught in this country at all. If I say that all Sarawakians live in Malaysia I am correct right?
But if I say all MAlaysians live in Sarawak - I am incorrect right?
So if I say all who speka in tongues (a foriegn language) speka in the the spirit, 0 that is correct. But to turn it around and say that all who speak in the spirit speak in tongues is just not so.
In fact Paul said that not everyone speaks in tongues. And yet if we believe that when we accept Christ and invite Him into our lives He comes in - then if we believe in the Trinity - the SPirit comes in at that time. So you prayed inthe SPirit even before you became a believer. And Rick Warren and others who have never prayered in tongues - does that means that they do not pray in the spirit - I am afraid that you are just wrong here and illogical at that.
The entire point Paul was trying to make - if you read the next few verses of I Cor. 14.!4 iss the importance of understanidng - otherwise how will the person know when to say amen at the end of the prayer (vs. 16). The entire issue was understanding and that is why an interpretor was necessaryso thos ewho did not understand the language in which the person spoke could understand and have a translation - much as when your friend from China spoke he has an interpretor so that people could understand. When he spoke in Chinese (and since the Spirit was hopefully in Him) he was spekaing in tongues. Then you had a translator who had the gift of interpretaiotn to help.
In addition you apologize for seeming arrogant and then in the next sentence are arrogant again - even admitting that tongues is for self edification - that is just the problem - 'self-edificaiotn. Our worhsip has become about edifiying self - when true worship is about edifying our Savior. But you are exactly corerect about that - this babbling that they call tongues (which is not a foreign language at all and therefore not tru biblical tongues but only an imitaiton) is for self edification and that is why it is wrong - worship is for God edification - and it is unfortunate that this cult of egoism has spread to the church- we think it is all about us and all about our edificaiotn - when in reality it is all about Him and what He has done for us. The heart of worhsip is all about Him and yet you have admitted so well what tongues is - it is all aobut us and our edification - hopefully you are beginning to see the truth from your own lips.
You fail (as usual) to address anything like the Mark passage and why you are not handling snakes - that is in the same passage but you conveninetly ignore it. If snake handling passed away then tongues spekaing did as well but if tongues spekaing is still aorund then so should snake handling. You cannot just cut out that part and leave in the other part to prove your point. You have done that with both the Mark and Corinthians passage. The Jude and Ephsians passage therefore are not necessarily tlakign aobut tongues - see the logic at the beginning - so you cannot make them say what they do not say by taking a verse in I Corinthains completely out of context. You have not made a point yet in anyhting you have said other than the point about self-edificaiton - which I do not think is any reason at all for tongues spekaing - even though it is not even tongues spekaing as found in the Scripture - you still have not shown me a time in the Bible where it uses a wored for tongues that does not mean a foreign language. You cannot assign your own definition of tongues to the Greek word anymore that I can assign my own definition of some chinese word to make it mean what I want it to mean - that is just crazy.
have a good day - praying that you will find the truth in Scirpture - not in teachers or experience or anything else.
To respond to your last comment -
1. You have made up your own definition of tongue - I gave you the Greek word that is used - it is glossolalia - and you are telling me that it no longer means foreign language but instead means this babbling that is mosre often seen in Hindusim and Buddhism - that is making up your own definition - show me any Greek scholar who says the glosalalia means soemthing other than foreign language
2. Again as I said above - you take the verse out of context - Paul was say - "what use if you sepak in a tongue - it is only edifying yourself - (in other words he is spekaing rhetorically and saying this is stupid speaking in a tongue because it only edifies yourself and not the entire body) - but if someone prophesies (or preaches) it benefits everyone - read the entire chapter - the entire point of the first haf is to point out why tongues are not good in a service and how is it better to speak 5 words that someone understands over a thousand in an unknown tongue - it is really pretty plain and simple what he said - but osmehow you have to take a part out to prove your point - somehting cults do but Christians should never be guilty of doing
3. look at the verse you typed - again the same idea - if you pray in a tongue - what use - becauser your understanding is unfruitful - or does not produce fruit - and again your logic is faulty as well - see my first statement about people in Sarawak and Malaysia.
a through analysis of I Corinthians 14 would show The believers at Corinth strongly desired the showy and spectacular when it came to spiritual gifts.[4] And so they desired the gift of tongues as the chief of all gifts from God. Paul's response was two-fold: First he shows the Corinthians that if they are going to seek anything from God as believers, they should seek to love as He loves.[5] Second, he dethrones the gift of tongues showing that of all spiritual gifts given to the church, the most important gift is prophecy, not tongues.[6] [7]
Now in his comparison of tongues and prophecy, Paul argues according to the following in 1 Corinthians 14:1-19:
Paul demonstrates the inferiority of tongues.
Paul demonstrates that tongues do not edify.(8)
Paul demonstrates that by itself, the gift of tongues is unintelligible to the listener.(9)
Paul outlines the purpose of tongues and prophecy.(10)
Paul details the procedure for the exercise of tongues and other such gifts of the Spirit.(11)
And so, if we are going to understand the purpose of the genuine gift of tongues, the passage to which we must go is Paul's treatment of it in 1 Corinthians 14:20-25. Now when we examine this text we conclude that the purpose of the gift of tongues, first of all, is the proclamation of judgment.
The Purpose of Tongues, a Proclamation of God's Judgment, 1 Corinthians 14:20
1 Corinthians 14:20 – 22, "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
To understand the purpose of tongues as outlined in this passage, let us walk our way through this text point by point. First of all, tongues are a sign. (verse 22) "Wherefore tongues are for a sign. . ." And what is a sign? In the Bible the word sign means a declaration of something. For example, circumcision was the declaration of the covenant in the Old Testament. In Romans 4:11 it was a declaration of a person's union with God. The rainbow serves as a declaration of God's grace in time of judgment. And so, according to 1 Corinthians 14:22, tongues are a declaration of some truth.
Secondly, tongues are a sign to unbelievers. "Not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. . . ." Unlike prophecy which declares the blessing of God as it is a gift given to edify the body of Christ, tongues declare a message from God to unbelievers. Now the question that must be asked is this: What is it that tongues, as a sign, declare to unbelievers? The answer to this is found in Paul's quotation 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NAS): "In the Law it is written, 'By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,' says the Lord. SO THEN [based upon the truth quoted in Isaiah] tongues are for a sign. . . ."
To understand the purpose of tongues as stated in 1 Corinthians.14:22, we must understand what Paul means by his quotation in 1 Corinthians 14:21.[12] To do that, let's examine Isaiah 28 for a moment.
The context of Isaiah 28 is a passage written to the rebellious people of Judah. Verses seven and eight describe the scene: the covenantal heads of God's people – who should have been a source of blessing and encouragement – have become a curse because they value pleasure more than God.
Isaiah 28:7 -8, "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean."
The picture presented here is one of filth and disgust. God had taken a people from the nations and made them His special people. And yet, these people time and time again rebelled. In fact, the rebellion got so bad that drunkenness was pervasive among God's leaders. No place could be found that had not been tainted by vomit. It is in this context, God sent Isaiah to pronounce – amazingly – blessing and hope if these sinful leaders would repent.
Isaiah 28:12, "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."
Indeed, rather than responding to this message with repentance and faith, these wicked leaders ignored the message of Isaiah – in fact, not only did they not listen to it, they mocked it!
Isaiah 28:9 - 10, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
In essence they said, "Isaiah, your teaching is so juvenile and elementary. It's the "ABCs" of theology. We know what we are doing!" And yet, God will not be mocked.(13) Because of the rebellion of His people, yea because of their continued unbelief, God must send forth His judgment!
Isaiah 28:11, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."
This is referencing the coming Babylonian captivity which would occur in 586 BC.[14]
Isaiah 28:13, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."
As the people mocked Isaiah's simple message[15] the next simple message would be the message of judgment that they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive.
And so because of His people's stubborn and rebellious heart – their heart full of unbelief – God warned of a coming judgment- a judgment that would occur in 586 BC. And how would this judgment be identified? When a people of a "strange tongue" – in this case the Babylonians – come to conquer and destroy Judah, then the people would know that God's judgment had arrived!
In fact, in this context notice that tongues are not a New Testament phenomena. At least four times they appear in the Old Testament. [16] And each time they represent a sign of God's judgment against apostasy, rebellion, unbelief and rejection of God. And thus, the Old Testament presents a unified testimony as to the significance of tongues – this is a testimony that any New Testament Jew would have understood if they had the eyes to see!
Prophecies from the 15th, 8th and 6th century BC all unite to make the same point – when tongues God's people, the people will know that God's judgment has come!
Now, based upon this Old Testament setting for tongues, what does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 14 that "tongues are a sign to the unbelievers? In other words, what is the purpose of tongues? There can only be one answer, tongues are a sign of God's judgment to unbelievers – for the sin of unbelief.
On the day of Pentecost when the Disciples amazed the Jewish multitude with tongues and the multitudes asked the question "what does this mean."[17] In the context of redemptive history, the answer is obvious. Just as the darkness that covered the earth at the time of Christ's crucifixion was a clear statement of God's judgment against His apostate and unbelieving people, [18] so also tongues represented the same message to these same Jews on account of their rebellious unbelief: God is not pleased with your religion!
"Tongues clearly indicate God's judgment on unbelief. If the Lord would bring such devastating judgment on his old covenant people as the Babylonians brought on Israel, then he surely will bring a finalizing judgment of even greater proportions on all who hear and reject the gracious message of the new covenant."[19]
Now is this the significance of tongues throughout the New Testament?[20] The answer is an emphatic YES! Each of these occurrences represent the same message/sign from God.
"A dramatic change is taking place in the outworking of God's plan of redemption. People of God, beware- God will not be mocked! The true child of God is the one who trusts in the Lord, and not in themselves. To continue in an unrepentant state, thinking that your religion of good deeds will save you, will reap the judgment of God on account of your unbelief!"[21]
And so, what is the purpose of the gift of tongues in the New Testament? It proclaims the judgment of God against His unbelieving people (Jews)! And that is why Paul begins this section on the purpose of tongues with this exhortation:
1 Corinthians 14:10, "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men."
The gift of tongues is not a toy designed for your own personal benefit. It is a powerful tool through which God proclaims His wrath against all who will not believe!
Dear Anon,
Thank you for showing me why u don't believe in the gift of tongue anymore.
As for myself, I will continue to desire for the best gift. Doesn't matter the gift is "inferior" or "superior". But I desire the best gift. And I pray that I may minister the gift of the Holy Spirit with love to others. And yes, I thank my God that the Holy Spirit has given me the gift of tongue. Hallelujah!
Pray for me too that I may continue to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
I confess I have the gift of discernment now too. And Anon, when we are in heaven one day, pls drop by and we will fellowship. Meantime, take care, buddy.
Jesus loves u.
BTW, Anon, just want to know ur theological position on the nation of Israel & the Jews.
Would appreciate ur input. Thanks.
I believe that the Jesw are still God's chosen people - I do not believe that goes back on His promise ot bless a people and I also believe that the nation of Israel will play an important role in end time events. I believe hjowever that because of their dis-belief they have suffered down through the years. The prophet Joel prophesied that their Messiah would come and tha they would not recognize Him and as a result they would see their young men having visions and spekaing in different languages - and when they saw this it was a sign that their Messiah had come and they had missed Him. Which is exactly what I believe happened at Pentecost (another reason I also believe that this gift of lnaguages was for the Jews as it filled the Old Testament prophecy of Joel). And this was a warning as I pointed out in my last message that judgment was coming which did come in 40 AM when the city of Jerusalem was completely destroyed (just becuase osmeon is God's chosen people - do not mean they are immune from God's judgment). The early church leaders - Jews - began spekaing in languages other than Hevrew that they had never studied - they spoke Greek, Latin, and many other languages they had never studied before - and this should have served as warning when they saw this miraculous event that Joel's rohecy had been fulfilled and that now God was going to judge them (Just as he had done in the Old Testament). I also believe that in spite of all of that and the persecution of Jewish people thorugh the years - God will still use thme in the final unfolding of history - however I am not a person who blindly defends every aciton of Israel either. HOwever if we are to trust the covenant that god made with us as an unchanging covenant made with an unchanging God - then we must believe that He will still honor his covenant with the Jews as well. Again though I am not a date setter and I am not exactly sure how He will do it. I think that books like the Left Behind series and others are interesting - but we have to be careful that we do not take them as inspired of God. They are one posibility of what might happen but there are other possibilities as well. I believe that we as believers are the branch that as the Bible says has been "grafted" into the vine and therefore in a sense of the word we are the "new Jews". god will work out His purposes in history and I again believe the Jews will play a role in that. More than that - I am not willing to commit to exactly how it will happen - but I must believe it if I am to believe that God is faithful to His covenant. Hope that is not too confusing. I fele that it s a little less clear in Scirpture than other htings such as tongues speaking - which I cearly believe Scripture says will cease. :) Have a wonderful week and I pray that our Father will show to you through His Word the truth concerning spiritual gifts - the sign ones - that passed away, and the spekaing and serving ones - which are still for today.
Post a Comment